Guest Post/Commentary Published By Request from “Write On”
Hi Terry,
I don’t know how to add a comment to your Blog, can you post this? Or at least answer, or both? Thanks bunches! And keep on writing Terry!
Wow! This is the most comprehensive information I have found on the whole James Ray (and the seminar / self-help/ coaching industry … all in one place. Great job! And good for Amy for following her conscience right out the door of JRI.
I have a question for you – didn’t you attend seminars that were with a company built on the foundation of EST, called Landmark, or something like that? I remember having a conversation with you and another person in that group. You were very into the whole scene at the time. I was not. You were engaged in “enrolling” people for the group. Have you had a change of mind/heart? Correct me if I’m wrong. Actually, I bet you have no problem setting the record straight at you see it – I mean that as a compliment to your inner core of strength!
You are not alone in your idea of the need to regulate the seminar/coaching/etc industry. And I agree! Not sure what kind of license could be required for seminars, but surely there must be a way to make it mandatory for people to show their actual training and credentials. And yes, if they are going to employ psychological therapy techniques, they should show they have the training/certification to do so. Perhaps “coaches” of any kind should be held to the same licensing laws as counselors?
I have a Master’s of Science degree in Psychology. Not a Master’s of Art. Science. I worked hard for that degree, and had a lot of supervision during and after my training. Every professional field has the burden of being marred by idiots within that field. Psychology is not exempt from this dilemma. Hence: licensure. Even so, there are licensed idiots out there causing havoc in people’s lives. So I wonder sometimes if it is really possible to fully regulate any field that claims to help others. Ultimately, people will have to regulate themselves when they sign up for an experience (whether it is free or they are paying an obscene $9000+). But how can they do that without FULL DISCLOSURE? Doesn’t seem the attendees of JRI have full disclosure, nor did they receive their “waiver” in a timely manner!
Your Blog offered lots of reading… I was horrified by the “waiver” JRI attendees sign… AFTER their 3 day refund period. Yikes!!! I have never used a Waiver. Therapists are required to carry Malpractice Insurance. Ya know… in case of MALPRACTICE, in which case, the therapist must be responsible to the injured person(s). Certainly I would never expect anyone to sign such a blatantly irresponsible Waiver like the one from JRI. Yep, I bet the Attendees that went, even after signing, surely never expected to be baked in a make-shift oven. Where are his real credentials to conduct a Sweat Lodge??
So that leaves me wondering…. How DO we empower others using our trained skills but NOT charge money in order to live? I don’t think you are advocating that people work for free. You are decrying the greed attached to many so-called self-help seminars and guru type businesses, right? I want to work to help others. You work to help others. We all need to be paid for our work and held accountable for what we do.
Keep writing! Thanks for all your hard work on your Blog!
Terry Hall
Mr Clean
@Write On, Thanks for your contribution.
1) Yes, I have participated in Landmark Education in the past in various capacities.
2) Regarding compensation: I feel people should be compensated for the value they add in proportion to what the market feels was added (In other words, let the market determine the value/worth). I do not recall having commented on James Ray or JRI charging too much for their programs. I do want one sided contracts, no-refunds, non-disclosure of credentials and curriculum changed, fully disclosed and regulated for consumer protection.
3) You ask: How do we empower others? IMO, we can’t empower others. We can encourage, educate, teach, recommend, advise, support and/or influence others. But empowerment is up to the each individual who is on their own journey or pathway. I arrogantly thought I could empower others and thought that I knew what’s best for other people. I was wrong. If “empowering” others was possible, there would be methods which would deliver 100% success rates. There are not such methods.
4) To help others, I personally recommend that you “practice what you preach” and lead your life as an example of your beliefs which will attract people to you who ask for your assistance. Help those people. Every mistake I’ve made (which there have been many) is when I’ve tried to take a short cut, follow something from a book, seminar or coach which did not agree with my values. I’ve mentioned Post Seminar Stress Disorder “PSSD” in a previous post and many people experience trauma or access past trauma in these seminars with no one qualified to manage what is created or dredged up. Which has for me led to very bad decisions, mistakes and damage (financially and relationally). As such, I no longer participate in any type of self-help or personal growth seminars – IMO they don’t work for the majority of people. The biggest gift anyone can give another is unconditional love and acceptance of who the other person is and is not.
Personally I *do* think James Ray charged too much for his seminars. The market beared his prices only because he uses highly aggressive and manipulative sales tactics, sales tactics that professional therapists are barred from using to get clients or else risk losing their license.
But it’s not simply a case of charge $9695 or nothing. The middle path most professionals in private practice take is to charge a reasonable fee and/or take insurance to help cover that fee. Similarly, seminars that charge more reasonable fees tend to be less aggressive in their sales pitches and psychological techniques.
@Duff thanks for stopping by. I personally think JAR’s price of admission was too high – hell, I refused to go for free (as a spousal perk for JRI employees). But, I’m basically a Libertarian and feel that the price is what the market will bear (for all products and services). Western culture, especially Americans seem to love high price tags and going into debt to pay them. Before James Ray killed 3 in Sedona and 1 in San Diego, no one seemed to care about Seminar Industry Business Practices. Awareness is the first step in change. Look at how Rich Dad & Kiyosaki were exposed in Canada. Which I am certain will be the first of many that bring to light Self Help & Seminar Industry Practices. This will be similar to Health Club Memberships, Real Estate & Mortgage Regulation & Securities Regulation. To paraphrase a long runnung ad: When Seminars Kill, People Listen.
BTW: I have not found that search algorithm yet. I’m still looking (filing ain’t my best skill).
Great guest blog, and love the comments that follow. I think that the JAR events has the media on “higher alert” hence the Robert Kiyosaki exposure (see my blog post at theflawofattraction.com/robert-kiyosaki-under-the-canadian-gaze/). I think we’ll be seeing more and more of that. Interesting bit about a woman named Janaki and her experience with Byron Katie. The PDF doc has disappeared, but an html version still survives. janakisblog.wordpress.com/about/ Turns out they all use similar tactics. Intense marketing, a ripping down of you identity, and a promise of successful reconstruction if you pay the (high) fees.
Ray says his prices are fair because people pay according to the value they feel they receive. Using that logic, he should also accept compensation claims according to the amount of damage people feel he has done to them.
I agree with Duff that he uses aggressive and manipulative tactics, and would add that through his fame he has been in the position of being able to more ruthlessly sift through thousands of people and lead the willing (and able to pay) step by step into accepting his terms.
The whole culture of the self help industry is set up to allow such blatant exploitation, to squash criticism, to encourage cross-promotion. The only standard for quality is financial success, and the only standard for ethics is what you can get away with. Anyone who doesn’t sink to those depths does so of their own accord, and at their own expense.
(Those who walked out of JRI recently – not mentioning any names! – actually did the company a great service, showing the public that the company was staffed by some people with integrity who sincerely believed in what they were doing.)
A few simple laws would fix things:
- any waivers or agreements must be signed before the refund date passes
- use of physically and psychologically dangerous activities must be acknowledged before the refund date
- adequate numbers of trained staff must be on hand at all times and for a week after
- deaths during a seminar should be reported and explained to police and immediate family, and maybe something about not cooking or suffocating people should be in there too.
The self-industry could police itself a bit better by encouraging people who have real qualifications to add “really!” after listing their PhD, and refering to their less well endowed colleagues with a “not really”. Or something. Stick it to ‘em, guys – people like Joe Vitale PhD, or Bob Procter, Scientist, or James Ray, Philosopher, are just making those with real quals look silly.
Consumers could protect themselves with a few simple rules: ignore testimonials completely, google the person or product + scandal, be aware of the way the inevitable hierarchy and power structures work, including the teacher’s conflicts of interest, and avoid anyone who so much as mentions quantum physics.
Thank you Terry for posting my questions. Your comment and the other comments that follow were helpful.
A rose is a rose by any other name… semantics.. “empower”…
I like your take on the word. I have used the word empower for a long time, meaning to support others as they claim their own inner-authority and self responsibility. After reading your comments, I am changing my use of the word “empower” NOW. Just goes to show; we have something new to learn in every moment
I agree, Waivers should spell out all potential activities and their respective possible dangers. Being over heated and quite possibly cooked in a tarp covered “sweat lodge” counts as a BIG disclosure item.
Thank you for your hard work on your postings. And thank you to your respondants. This is turning out to be one of the best sites to learn about what’s really going in my own field!!
FYI: I signed up for an email thing on someone’s site who turned out to be connected to all the various networking people of The Secret. Suddenly I was on a number of their email lists (must have abeen a TINY little disclosure at the very botttom of some email that I first responded to. In short, it took a long time to get off all the email lists. Some still get through. They use the very same format of videos and newsletters. For a fee, you can do the same and be ‘empowered’ by their network of e-lists.
Terry you spoke of the monetary value of JRI’s email list. Well, that same list is shared in part by Bob Proctor, et all of The Secret fame. Multi-level marketing and networking disguised as “ancient truth bearers”. I really got suckered in, but thankfully got out before signing up for a human
cook-out in the desert.
Keep on writing!
@Write On It was my pleasure to post your comments. I’m happy to see you’ve learned how to add a comment.
> Regarding Lists: Most of the time these are called JVs or Joint Ventures. Pat of the disclosure I want to see is regarding financial relationships between parties. This may well be covered in the Dec 1 FTC suggestions, but there have been no test cases to set a precedent.
> Much of what groups like TLC do is allow the Seminar Companies to network for the purpose of forming JVs and Strategic Alliances. This is good business, except when full disclosure is not given.
A psych “helps” the person “accept” who they are and diagnose ppl as well. The ppl who coach do not diagnose, and actually help the individual/s find a solution. I’ve been to both, and the simple methodology that a coach will teach is far better than a psych. However if someone is seriously ill – then yeah, therapy is needed. Not only that, but the are doctors with a certificate, yet are dumber than a sac of hammers because they have no clue on the “how to” part of performing. I have never trusted a doctor more than a mechanic. Doctors will guess at what a person has and feed them loads of different meds until they “find” what the person has – not safe – rather stupid and not educated.